A Battle on All Fronts #1

One of the most common questions asked to the design team is whether we primarily balance for competitive play or for casual play. What complicates this question is the general perception from casual players that we balance only for competitors, thereby ruining casual play; meanwhile and concurrently, competitors infamously accuse us of balancing and designing for casual play, thereby ruining competitive play. The truthful answer is that we will always balance for competitive play, but we design for all tiers of skill. This series will be devoted to exploring this sensibility.

Place yourself into the shoes of a neophyte to the genre. Entering the full hero selection screen is nothing short of daunting, but is only a taste of the challenge to come. Many of our new players have never played DotA before; they come to us through word of mouth (to our fans, we are eternally grateful) or via media coverage (to publishers; I am available for photoshoots M-F 10-6 EST). What is common, and unfortunate, is that the newbie experience in HoN is nothing short of horrible, and the core game design is certainly a big part of it. While some have charged that we have been moving the gameplay towards a more casual audience–an accusation that is mislead, as I will explain later–it would be foolish for us to not address the shortcomings that plague the genre. Our loyal playerbase should not be alarmed, however–this is not indicative of a gameplay direction shift. Rather, there are ways to tackle the problem through the interface. To continue, I’d like to present HoN as a game that requires three player attributes:

  1. Knowledge: rote knowledge is the greatest barrier to entry. Knowledge of what every hero and item does, how different heroes and items interact, and the ability to synthesize all of this knowledge and quickly access it in the heat of battle is incredibly taxing.
  2. Experience: experience is the most difficult skill to obtain, as it can only be obtained through time and practice. Experience is recognizing and responding to certain situations–when to engage, when to retreat. It is experience that is responsible for calculated risks and extraordinary plays.
  3. Finesse: finesse is the final component, and is something that comes naturally to some, while others may never obtain it. Proper usage of heroes like Ophelia require that the player hold perhaps an inborn set of skills. Anyone can play basketball for years, but they may never be Michael Jordan.

The problem with DotA and HoN is that knowledge is not presented in an orderly, accessible fashion–it is acquired through experience. Valve has announced that they will be integrating a mentoring program–which is by all means a valiant effort, but is undeniably dependent on good will and good advice. Part of what we wish to do with HoN moving forward is to streamline the way knowledge is presented to the player such that it is integrated and delivered through the interface in a useful, enjoyable manner. What HoN has done successfully thus far is take much of the information in the game, organize it, and present it to the end user in an easily parse-able manner. Persistent stats, in-game gold breakdown, the observer interface, and replay features all serve this end. However, gameplay knowledge itself still must be acquired through either personal experience or external means such as the forums. Vital to the game moving forward is a fully integrated solution for learning as you go along. As the patches go by, expect to see the fruits of this effort trickle their way in.

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30 Responses to A Battle on All Fronts #1

  1. HumtY says:

    A solution to something like that would be the difference between HoN and DoTA. HoN is a purely online game with no possibllity that newbie players matchup against each other on LAN and learn together. Whereas in DoTA players are able to play it on LAN and learn while playing with similar skilled/players of the game and is a much better learning process. Compared to the oonline matchup system for HoN where PSR/MMR do not actually speak a level of skill of the player. But unfortunately this isn’t a viable solution but you could introduce LAN in limited play etc. Something like allowing players to use the game on LAN for the 3v3 map only, with just ap mode or something like that. Without skins etc.. And if they seem to enjoy it then they would definately want to play online in Forests of Caldavar.

  2. CoverGhoul says:

    He hasn’t really said what the solution they’re planning is… and as such I don’t think we can really judge it. That said, it has good intentions and that’s generally the first step toward something good. Having learned myself over a LAN network in the dorms, I will say LAN did make a difference in my entry to DOTA. It did also ruin the game for the people I was playing with because I got very good very quickly (comparatively). Skill and enjoyment will always be tough to balance.

  3. baasd says:

    As the patches go by, expect to see the fruits of this effort trickle their way in.

    examples?

  4. Brannock says:

    Nome, you need to remove Chewymouse as a gm.
    I’ve been in the LLJK channel for a long time, and he abuses his power when he’s the channel OP.
    Don’t give him actual, real power!

  5. Jeef says:

    Nice! Excellent follow up post to a great question 😀

    I honestly feel like this would serve great use as an introduction to the game so to speak. The genre of “DotA” could really use some proper specification that is made public / sensible to read to allow people who can “play basketball” but can’t quite dunk like MJ.

    I think personally my biggest hurdle in the public scene is the ability for some people to take WILDLY different approaches on either common tactics, or just screw it up completely.

    Nigma’s website the “prodex” (http://www.nigmanoname.com/prodex.html) was a really cool idea to furthering common knowledge since it’s kind of an online bank of where / what / how to play a hero

    P.s small typo in the first ordered list item… i think it should say “role knowledge”

    p.p.s but they may never Michael Jordan <- phrasing win

    • s2nome says:

      Part of what we’re going to do is unify knowledge. The hero compendium in the game right now is woefully inadequate, for starters. What’s exciting about the things I hinted at in this post is that they’re not just tools to help beginners. All players will get something out of it.

      In the end, everyone benefits.

      • Jeef says:

        Do you ever play any public matches?

        I think it would be cool to see some of the designers play the game for some fun. I’ve gotten lucky and matched against you once but your team wasn’t all that into it, stated they were testing things and whatnot :p

  6. chin_a says:

    Nome you need to come and engage the community in this topic.
    http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=227719

    – MalikenS3

  7. pnw says:

    What the fuck?
    Re-ban Zaku and ban Pwn` for boosting and sharing accounts.

  8. Jason D says:

    S2 has always seemed like they would rather make more money from the people already playing than entice and help new players. Frankly, new players need coddling to a certain extent and being thrust into a 5v5 game for their learning phase is a difficult obstacle to overcome.

    From a game design standpoint I’d like to point out Starcraft II. In their Matchmaking system, you are placed in a ‘placement bracket’ first, where it tosses you into a few games to see what tier of play you are in. I think that HoN would benefit from such a thing, using TMM as its basis for these trial matches. I’m hesitant to comment on TSR because it’s not an official ranking, but some way of overall checking how a new player adapted with APM and time spent in shop could help S2 place new players in a bracket they should be in.

    A new player in SC2 has extensive tutorials in the form of the single player campaign. This campaign is designed to teach the player the basics, then advanced skills, then test their skills. Many a player will play the entirety of the single player mission before touching multiplayer, and when they do it will be a much easier entrance because they are familiar with the game. I’m not saying that a full single player mode is necessary, but the addition of 2 things would help new players adapt much faster and better: 1) A short single player campaign that can teach players the laning phase, how to handle a team fight, last hitting, and map awareness. 2) a bots mode where the computer can tell the player tips while they play.

    In regards to (1), you could probably even go the community and ask for the maps, and have an inhouse VA do simple dialogue. You have someone on staff who does creative writing for the heroes, and adding some personality to them would make a single player experience enjoyable. Moreover from a company perspective it’ll give new players a place to start instead of joining a game and spending the first 4 minutes looking at the shop then going to a lane without items.

    As far as (2) goes, it would take more work to have a semi-scalable difficulty AI. But the end result is beneficial for all players. New players can get their feet wet without someone yelling at them because they’re making their team lose the game, and pros can practice strategies and lane combinations without needing another team. New-player tips like “You seem to be pushing a bit far, Note that there are 3 enemies missing” would teach them the tips that will help them become a better player.

    In this article you say “The problem with DotA and HoN is that knowledge is not presented in an orderly, accessible fashion–it is acquired through experience.” And I agree entirely. Even no-stats games get people raging and more angry at new players than they deserve. Shouldn’t there be a friendly way for new players to learn the ropes before being fed to the lions?

  9. Barnz says:

    The Dota genre grew because of LAN play.
    If HoN wants to become the standard for Dota type games, releasing LAN would be a huge help.

    • HumtY says:

      I second your opinion about how DoTA grew because of LAN play but also in the present day scenario where online gameplay is being redefined with every release of a game, selling games which involve multiplayer gameplay at such a level as DoTA genres is a financial problem for the developers. DoTA flourished because it was just a map in an already developed game WC III whereas Heroes of Newerth is a standalone game which involves only the DoTA gameplay.

  10. pnw says:

    S2 calling opposing players niggers and spics and then disabling their account mid-game. GG

  11. rand says:

    “this company has never been professional. I volunteered to be a GM (it’s since been revoked but I still have the tag don’t know why) and I will tell you right now the RAP system is a joke.

    Most GMs don’t even watch the reported replays, they just look at the stats to see if there is something obvious like you sold all your items or said something racist in the chat. More than once I had a case I was working on deemed innocent by lazy GMs who didn’t want to watch the replays. They also get more reports than they can handle so the number of unread reports just goes up and up and up…

    And when my GM was revoked it was because I came on the forums and posted criticism of the game after I had taken a month off to play other games and focus on developing a SC2 website. They didn’t send me an e-mail or anything thanking me for my service (I did do a lot when I was active) or even to inform me that it was being revoked.”

    welp, looks like i just lost all hope in the rap system. cool

      • rand says:

        wait dont dodge the question

      • s2nome says:

        There’s no question! I wouldn’t know, truthfully, because I no longer work with the RAP system (I only do design now). Feanux is the full-time RAP guy now.

        The specific situation described is unfortunate, however. I don’t know who they’re referring to, but it’s not difficult for me to admit that the RAP system DOES have its flaws–though we are constantly working to improve it.

        Either way, if you have a specific inquiry about RAP, you can ask Feanux. He’s always around.

  12. chroipahtz says:

    Maybe I’ve missed it, but have you guys said anything about what you plan on doing to compete with DotA 2 (both on retaining the playerbase and remaining different gameplay-wise)? The latest Honcast podcast has a discussion about it, and they seem to be in agreement that you guys are letting the ball down. I know marketing and community aren’t your forte, but it’s your job and your company’s future success on the line, so do you have any thoughts on this?

  13. Amof says:

    The obvious answer is to use Aluna in more advertising >.>, I hear alot of talk about how much better HoN is then it’s competitors. And while I belive it to be true LoL gets wayyyyy more exposure then HoN does it gets out there and makes you look at it, even if its “paying” off tournament organizers it gets the job done. No matter what you do if no one knows you’ve got the better games I doesn’t really matter that you do.

  14. Sam Jacob says:

    For someone who wants elegance in balancing, what are your opinions on disabling dual alchemist bones and removing the 0:00 rune?

    I don’t personally thinking removing an item is equivalent to elegant balance. With vanguard (HotBL) for example, nothing stops you from buying 6 but the marginal utility of each additional one is so low that it doesn’t justify the cost.

    Isn’t just slapping a restriction on an item a fail according to you?

    • Sam Jacob says:

      Also, on further thought suggestions for the 0:00 rune, a minor stat boost has been suggested already.

      Other alternatives include a small gold bounty, a free ward, the knowledge of where the next rune will be and/or what it is, or approx 30 seconds of full vision of the enemies.

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